TRANSCRIPT: WLRN EXTENDED INTERVIEW WITH DANIELLE AND EILEEN OF THE VANCOUVER LESBIAN COLLECTIVE

 Nov 16, 2018

Transcribed by Danielle Whitaker

INTRO: This is a WLRN extended interview.

April NEAULT: Could you talk a little bit about the lesbian collective, how it was formed, and what its purpose was or currently is?

Danielle CORMIER: First of all, this is not my group. We are now a collective, and every member has a vote, and there are several women who have been with me right from the beginning, so there are now several founding members. What I did was I took advantage of a moment, really, when allies, the amazing women at Vancouver Rape Relief, who have themselves been under serious and sustained attacks from trans activists and their supporters for decades now, organized an event three years ago now, inviting Julie Bindel as an invited participant and a speaker. And the event very much centered lesbians, something that just never happens anymore, so I was very excited, and honestly I hadn’t been that excited since Vancouver hosted the gay olympics quite frankly. So I had had the profound privilege of finding out for myself some decades ago now how powerful it is to gather and organize with other women, and it really stayed with me. I believe that in a culture that increasingly makes female space taboo, that we should do it more, not less. I’m also increasingly worried about the erosion of lesbian culture, spaces, politics—how polarized and divided we have become. I was angry and sad at what was being done to individual lesbians and to lesbians collectively, so I took advantage of a moment when there would be a lot of lesbians all gathered in the same room, with whom I could count on having at least some common ground, and I said, I’m starting a radical feminist lesbian group, and I passed around a sign-up sheet. And here we are three years later.

NEAULT: According to the website for the Vancouver Dyke March, there is a two-spirit, trans, and intersex persons policy that aims to, quote, “contribute to a culture of inclusivity and welcome for two-spirit, trans, and intersex persons and repudiate the efforts of a small minority that wish to exclude two-spirit, trans, and intersex persons from Vancouver Dyke March events,” end quote. So when your collective was approached by two event board members before the march started, did they state your XX chromosome t-shirt was offensive to two-spirit, trans, and intersex people, or did they explicitly say it was non-inclusive of trans women?

CORMIER: It was very specific about—we were told that this was an inclusive march, and specifically that our t-shirts, which had—our team was superheroes, lesbian superheroes. So we had chosen a uterus symbol that looked like a superhero – , with the word lesbian on it, and we made t-shirts so that we could wear them, so the message obviously was that lesbians are female. We were told that we would have to take those off, that we would have to leave our leave our placards behind, and furthermore that if we had any XX symbols, or if we had any Venus or interlocking Venus symbols—these are all female symbols—that we would have to leave them all behind because they excluded trans women. The two board members that approached us, one of them was a trans woman, who further reminded us that not all women have vaginas. So there was no mention of inclusivity for anyone else, including us, by the way.

NEAULT: When we talk about inclusivity, why do you think women’s emotional, physical, psychological needs are always put behind those of men?

EILEEN: I guess now in a patriarchal society women’s emotional, physical, and psychological needs are only secondary to that of men. And women are socialized to cater to the needs of men, children and others. And women are socialized to care for men and pleasure men, I think above their own personal needs. So for women who fought for and continue to assert women’s rights and privileges to no longer be the – of men, has actually improved the lives of grandmothers, mothers, and sisters. All women can enjoy a better life, not just here but in many parts of the world. So the well-being of women is the well-being of everyone. And generally they are known to – and protect their young. These are the traits for the survival of any species.

CORMIER: I think that – women have made some hard fought-for and won gains over the last few decades, and I think this is at least partly responsible if not wholly responsible for the increasing instances of brazenly, openly displayed and tolerated acts of misogyny. I think that the increase in violence and degradation both in pornography and prostitution are all at least partly a response to those gains, including any and all measures to roll back those gains. Trans activism has created a platform where misogyny and anti-feminist retaliation really can be openly displayed under a new brand called social justice warrior, and I find that quite appalling. I really do, because I know that any true social justice movement just would not be so very centered on continuously attacking women, and I think this serves as a warning to women: you’ve gone too far, and if you don’t stop now things will get much worse, and by the way, we’re gonna take back those gains, and you better not complain or we’ll give you something to complain about, so you’d better be quiet. These are not the earmarks of a social justice movement, not by any stretch of the imagination.

NEAULT: Ten brave women joined your group during the onslaught of abuse your collective was suffering at the hands of these trans activists during the march. What do you think it’ll take to see more women to stand up for the rights of lesbians and women in a climate that is so hostile towards women?

CORMIER: In the current climate, I think we need to evaluate that one woman at a time. I know what you’re talking about. I’ve felt very isolated at times in this fight, and I’ve felt the urgency of it, and the need for all of us to speak out, as well as the certainty that they can’t talk for all of us. If we all do it, we can turn this around. But I have also, throughout my decades as a feminist, watched too many women get sacrificed, women losing their careers, women losing their reputations. Eileen and I were just talking about this prior to you calling. There is so much being talked about, you know, poor men losing their reputations in the hashtag Me Too movement—I think that far more women have lost their reputations to trans activism, and that’s really a shame.

So part of me doesn’t want to sacrifice any more women. Another part of me really wants us all to speak out. And then I think that middle ground in me, which I tend to think is positively more bang-on, is that we need to identify that one woman at a time. Some women have more to lose than others. Some women are more at risk and more vulnerable than others. Of course, they have their own voice and can decide for themselves what the risks are and whether they want to take them. But I don’t think we should be in a position to judge them for it.

EILEEN: I would also like to add that I think that the socialization of traditional – much earlier and the way women and young women have been socialized and conditioned right now is so very concerning, because it really normalizes the idea that the needs of women are really secondary to that of men. What Danielle had mentioned about the Me Too movement, you would think here from the media that it’s ruining the reputations of these men who are being accused. For that to even be out there, it really, really strongly shows that the needs of women are secondary to that of men.

CORMIER: I completely agree with that. I think also, you know, women have been (an) oppressed [class)…we’re vulnerable to internalized misogyny. The messages have become so very constant and increasingly virulent, and like I said, I think all this—whether you see it consciously or not, there is a warning: you better shut up, you better not go too far, or else. So I think women do internalize that in the way that they internalize that they’re under the threat of rape on a constant basis, even if they don’t maybe articulate that out loud. And we all have that gut instinct inside of us, that that is a threat to us, and I think we’re also still continuously dismissed as hysterical and paranoid whenever we bring any complaint forward, and we’re often accused of playing the victim card, which just pisses me off to no end, because either you’ve been victimized or not; you don’t play the victim.

And also, women care about social justice, and they’re being told that this is a social justice cause, and so they want to be supportive of that. We need to leave it up to them to decide for themselves what the risks are and whether it’s worth it. We also need to make sure that when we resist, that we don’t waste that bravery. We have to make our actions count, so that the benefits at least match the risks. And we need to be unified, we can’t afford to be fighting with each other now. Let’s just maybe not do that. [laughs] And there is unity there, I think we’re dealing with a moment in time that is very tense and very frustrated, and I know that that unity is there, and in the end that’s what’s gonna shine.

NEAULT: The Canadian Civil Marriage Act, passed on July 20, 2005, made it legal for same-sex couples to get married. How do you think we as Canadians have gone in that short period of time of being inclusive and accepting of lesbian partnerships in 2005, to now branding lesbian collectives such as yours as hate groups?

EILEEN: I think that the – this act, this law has actually benefited not just the women but a lot of people. And yes, it’s a sad thing that now lesbians are being labeled as hate groups and I think that’s very ironic.

CORMIER: These are words that are being thrown around entirely too much, come on now. To be branded a hate crime—we’ve been called Nazis and fascists and aggressors and even misogynists. We’ve been called misogynists by men. This has just gone way, way too far, and these are really serious accusations, and it’s also important to keep it in the context of measures that have been taken and future measures that are planned as well. There have been changes to the criminal code with regards to hate crime, that now absolutely make it illegal to perpetrate a hate crime against trans-identified individuals, which is fine. Our position is very clear on the fact that no one should be subjected to hate crime and not have full protection under the law. About that, what is up for debate here, is what constitutes a hate crime against trans people. I know that there are measures that are coming to further amend hate crime law both in the criminal code which covers all of Canada, and in the Charter of Rights, that would, for example, remove intent, so right now when you charge someone on the basis with perpetrating a hate crime, there is a burden of proving that there was an intention to commit harm. If you remove that language, then it becomes about who is accusing you and whether they say they have been harmed by what you did and said or not. Now again, in the current, very volatile political climate, where the words hate crime, hate group, bigotry, acts of hatred, et cetera, are being thrown around quite liberally, that can have a different context. So we’re very aware of the fact that not only us, other groups and individuals, have been branded hate crime perpetrators and hate groups, and we’re not sure that this is all not part of that strategy.

EILEEN: I think being labelled a hate group or bigot, I think that those are the terms that have been used to describe women really show a very intolerant opinion and perception of lesbians. Lesbians are targeted with slurs such as bigot or hate group or TERFs, because lesbians speak up and advocate for sexual autonomy, or lesbian women’s right to determine when, with whom and under what circumstances they engage in sexual activity, and to only engage in sexual activity to which they consent. Lesbians have this right, and others who want to infringe on this have called lesbians bigots. If you want to brand anyone a bigot, you might be the very person who – . I think that should be very clear, who is the bigot.

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VOICE: You are listening to WLRN.

NEAULT: When or how do you think that this “TERF” hate campaign, directed extensively at lesbian women, is going to come to an end?

CORMIER: I don’t think it’s gonna come to an end, April, I think we’re gonna have to stop it in its tracks. That’s what I think. And I think that’s coming. I want to take the opportunity here to say that our collective is extremely proud of this moment. In 2018, lesbians at Pride & dyke marches globally, notably in San Francisco, London, as well as here in Vancouver, without coordinating with each other, without knowing about each other’s plans, clearly and loudly all said, we’re absolutely not going to allow this to move any further, we’re not going to allow this to continue. And we’re very grateful for that moment of solidarity and the way it amplifies their own voices, and that will absolutely continue. More and more women every day are realizing what is going on, that their rights are being infringed upon, and they’re getting angry, and I think when women start to get angry, and start to get together, historically that’s when revolutionary things happen. But power, being what power is, they will never stop of their own volition. We’re going to have to make it very clear that it won’t be allowed. And that’s what we plan to do.

EILEEN: And I think it’s extensively directed at lesbians, because lesbians have been really at the forefront advocating for sexual autonomy, for liberation of women, and that seems to be really very much the target of a lot of threats, verbal lashing, and physical and verbal intimidation.

CORMIER: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s always been a threat to men, you know? Historically, we’ve often organized ourselves in a way that maybe afforded us a little reprieve from everyday misogyny that all women face, and I think we’re just not allowed to do that. Also, there was a once large and thriving lesbian culture in which any woman could take refuge, and we welcomed them gladly; there was respite there for any woman. Many of whom, and I include myself in that, didn’t even realize how much they needed that respite until they experienced it, and I think it’s very, very sad that our daughters don’t have access to that experience of immersing yourself in female culture, of how powerful that is and how healing that is—and how just plainly awesome it is. I grieve for my own daughters and for all the young women who don’t have that in their lives, because it had such a big impact on me, such a positive impact on me. To have the opportunity to just take a break from it is no longer available. What this erosion has meant and even in the LGBTQ community, we’ve talked about this in our own collective, and we’ve realized that LGBTQ and the other increasing letters that go along with it, none of those categories do not include men anymore. None of them. There are no options.

But again, the good news, is that there’s us, that’s the very reason why this group was started, out of the need to create more female space at a time when that was taboo, and the other reasons that I mentioned. And we know we’re not the only one. We know this because we know our own history as women, as a – class, that whenever things get hard, women continue to organize underground and perhaps in silence, and perhaps out of view, and carefully. But they don’t stop. They continue to do that. So we know there are others like that out there, and we’re working on seeing if we can connect with them. That’s kind of one of the things I wanted to put out—to make sure that if there are other groups of lesbians or allies that are organizing on this issue, on the issue of protecting female space, and protecting lesbians’ and all women’s sexual autonomy, we would love to hear about you, we’d love to know where you are and what you’re doing, and we welcome any and all chances to amplify each other’s voice. And I think that is going to be what happens. Like I said, there’s a lot more women getting angry now. We will reach critical mass.

NEAULT: Why do you think gay men are silent on this issue?

CORMIER: Well, gay men have always been silent on this issue. That was part of the reason initially that lesbians separated from the—at the time it was just the gay and lesbian movement. I remember before the B was added, even. At that time it was a rather small group of gays and lesbians who were fighting for the right to be with each other, and in some cases without government intervention. But that’s definitely no longer what it is. But they have always been silent on this, which is appalling, and I think increasingly appalling, because like I say in the article, surely we have allies in gay men. Surely not all gay men are in favor of this deeply homophobic policy and strategy that says that lesbians must include men. Come on now.

EILEEN: I think also that gay men don’t really have anything to lose or gain. They are not threatened in any way as much as women are being threatened. And that being said, I think in the collective, it was also mentioned that at the height of the HIV crisis, it was the lesbians who were there to support gay men. And yet, at this time, they are nowhere to give support to lesbians.

CORMIER: And also, the lesbian liberation movement, right from the get-go, included gay men. But even if it hadn’t, again, that’s one of the many virtues of the true social justice movement. Anything that you’ve accomplished, if it benefits the most marginalized of us, it should trickle up and benefit everybody, shouldn’t it? So it always included gay men. So the accusation that we’ve always been exclusive is not quite right. But that’s not what they mean anyway; what they mean is the term lesbian being exclusive when we say lesbians are female. That has always been true, by the way. We did not just make up that term. It’s been around for a very, very, very long time.

EILEEN: Going back to the fact that why gay men have not been active in supporting women, lesbians, it’s really – it’s not just sad but when they needed support, and here we are needing support, they are nowhere to be found.

CORMIER: Yes, that’s correct. When we talk about trans men, for example, occupying male space, we’re often kind of given that as a response—well, women are not a threat to men, are they? They’re not. If anything, they’re more in danger going into male-dominated spaces than anything else.

NEAULT: Yeah, I suspect that there is not a whole bunch of women in prisons all of a sudden identifying as men.

CORMIER: No, no that’s not happening, and there’s no concerted effort to bully men into considering trans men as partners, or sexual partners, or anything like that. That’s just not happening. Again, like I said in the article, there is no jock-strap ceiling, there is only a cotton one.

NEAULT: Do you have anything else you would like to say to our lesbian feminist and radical feminist listeners?

CORMIER: I think that we’ve done the so called trans-identified community an extreme disservice in letting this singular narrative be pushed forward instead of really asking the question, what the hell is going on here? Why, why is there an increasing population with genuine distress and experiencing hardship over the sex that they were born as and their gender? There’s something very significant going on here, but it’s too easy to then just say, well you’re the opposite sex, you’re the opposite gender. I think that’s just way too easy, and I think there are multifaceted answers that differ, by the way, if you’re a man than if you’re a woman, and those are not being looked at, those are not being evaluated, and of course all that would cost a lot of money, wouldn’t it? And of course the current narrative is a very lucrative proposition as well, and in my mind that’s always been a reason in itself to be very suspicious.

I’m not saying anything new here, we have been trying for decades to have this debate, but in order to have it, both parties need to be willing to come to the table, and that’s what we’re missing. We’re definitely missing that component, so I’m personally still willing to engage in debate with anyone, willing to sit down at a table and agree to critically examine the very question we just mentioned and others, and to look at the clashes, and to see what’s a way around it. I have my own opinion of that, but me and my collective, we don’t just believe in self-determination and autonomy for ourselves, we really do believe that that is something that everyone should have, but I don’t see that happening in the so-called trans-identified and non-gender binary community. I don’t see the process where there is genuine self-determination going on. Instead, like I said, there’s this very lucrative, very profitable, and potentially extremely damaging singular narrative being put forward to a growing population that we know—studies have come out, this has been confirmed—there is a high comorbidity, we’re talking about vulnerable people, and we have a duty of care to not take advantage of those vulnerabilities.

Sometimes I have to remind myself as well that in trans activism, the movement has been hijacked by not the greatest arm of it, if I can say it that way. There’s a lot of other people out there identifying as trans who don’t necessarily agree with these tactics. So I really do think there is common ground to be had, I think that the movement will have to be led by other people, by people who are willing to engage in the debate, and who are willing to self-reflect as well, and I get it, self-reflection is a very hard thing, I’ve had to look at the impact of misogyny in my own life, and it’s been rough. But I do think that’s what needs to happen here, to agree to get together in groups of peers, and not focus on how they’re gonna get back at TERFs, but focus on what the hell’s happening to us, and what are they doing to us, and is it okay, and is this what we needed, and is this fixing the problem. And I think we might actually, if that happens, I think we might actually have something revolutionary happening there as well. But that’s not happening. That’s what I’d like to see happen.

EILEEN: Also, I think what is our concern is that why we grapple on what the answer is to put an end to all of this, every day, every moment of the day, our minds are exchanging ideas trying to understand what is going on, and I think that the fact that lesbians are being labeled bigots, and lesbians are being accused of being hate groups, there is no counter-narrative that they are hearing, and that really concerns me. What to do about that, I guess, is also of such importance that it might be able – . When you hear the word trans-exclusive radical feminist as a description of groups that advocate for sexual autonomy and freedom for women, and yet, the other side, the individuals who call us that, really they are fear-mongering. I know there should be a better term for that to counter all the slurs being used to describe women – who are fighting against oppression, against discrimination. So, April, if you might have those words to counter… or effective words that could counter all of those…I think that this also would be an effective tool.

CORMIER: I think misogyny is probably a good one. It’s really important to recognize this as—it’s not really a new fight, is it? This has been going on forever. A few decades ago, women who have ventured out without men were maligned as loose women, and now we’re called TERFs. It’s essentially the same fight with a little bit of added nuance. They’re calling themselves a social justice movement now, while they’re calling us bad. That’s new. But it’s misogyny in the end. It’s about the fact that we were never fully granted, never fully realized, full sexual autonomy, full self-determination. We were still fighting for that, and now it’s being rolled back and it’s being taken away. That’s always been the case. Space has never been given to us, we had to take it. We have to take it, and we’re gonna have to take it again. But luckily it’s not our first round, so we know how.

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NEAULT: Thanks for tuning in to this extended interview with Danielle Cormier and Eileen. Both women are members of a lesbian collective in Vancouver, Canada that sustained lesbophobic bullying and harassment in the name of trans activism at this year’s Dyke March. If you’d like to reach out to the lesbian collective, I encourage all allies to send a word or two of solidarity via email at thelesbiansvancouver@gmail.com. This is April Neault. You can follow WLRN on Facebook, Twitter, WordPress, and Tumblr. We would love to hear from you. Please send us an email at wlrnewscontact@gmail.com. Solidarity, sisters.