This month we tackle the topic of women in the Black Lives Matter movement with an interview with black radical feminist, Tracy Neal, from Detroit and commentary from WLRN’s Dani Whitaker.

In addition to exploring this topic, we’d like to welcome our newest member, Emiliann Lorenzen, who wrote and delivers our world news segment for this month of September.

Featured song: Four Women by Nina Simone.

Because there were technical difficulties with the interview, we have created a transcript for you to read to make sure you catch every word of Ms. Neal’s interview. A big THANK YOU to WLRN’s Jenna DiQuarto for offering to transcribe the interview so quickly for us to share with you. You can find it below.

Thanks for staying tuned to feminist powered community radio, WLRN.

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH TRACY NEAL August 29th, 2020

Sekhmet SHEOWL: As far as I understand, you are not a participant in the Black Lives Matter movement, whether in Detroit or otherwise. So I was, I was hoping that you could tell us why that is you know your feelings about the movement. And whether there’s any difference as far as you know, between the movement in Detroit, and the movement elsewhere with black lives matter.

Tracy NEAL: Yeah, I do not f**k with Black Lives Matter because they center Black men. That’s why. And, pretending to be women. Black men are not Black women. And I don’t appreciate them embracing me and pretending to be us. We have it hard as Black women, we have it hard already. We’re already being told we’re not quote feminine enough. That we’re men, you know and, we’re big, and…you know, all of this shit, and then they decide so-called trans women  are women and they need protection, but this is the same Black male [unintelligible] that is raping, murdering, maiming, and abducting us. So, you know, it just angers me how Black men can say, Oh, we’re women. We’re women, but you know, nothing about the Black male violence against Black women and girls. So we’re supposed to feel safe going into spaces and marches with men claiming to be us. And I think Black Lives Matter is helping to erase Black women. And there’s two reasons why I do not f**k with them. I don’t think they care about Black women. I think they mentioned Breonna Taylor, Sandra Bland as side issues. George Floyd….AND Breonna Taylor…as a side note, an afterthought. We are! It’s reflected in the community. When an officer, I believe in Oklahoma, was raping Black women, so few people showed up. Now I don’t know if Black Lives Matter showed up or not but…it was such a small amount of protest for those Black women that were being raped by that police officer. And if Black Lives Matter was [unintelligible]. Very few people come out and march for us. For our right to learn, to breathe, in the Black community, or what a lot of us divested Black women call [unintelligible]. I mean we’re being held captive. We truly are. And when we speak, we get the ‘Not all men. Not all Black men. Shut up.’

SHEOWL: Right.

NEAL: It’s wrong. It’s just wrong. And I don’t appreciate that attitude at all. And then you wouldn’t know, really, that Black women are killed by police, really. You wouldn’t know that we suffer injustice – I’ve suffered injustice…But Black men in all of these organizations are always the face of oppression, Black oppression. They’re always the face of injustice. So that is why I just have no interest in Black Lives Matter. Years ago I used to protest for the Black men being killed by police, and, y’know you go to the March, then when you walk back home to the community, the Black men are telling you how you have to submit as a Black woman. ‘Don’t bring that brother down, don’t talk about him sexually assaulting that sister,’ you know, or ‘Let’s just keep it in the community.’ No one cares about Black women and girls in the Black community. So to me, Black Lives does not matter. They don’t matter! They don’t. This is a male-centered organization.

SHEOWL: So, I did want to come back briefly to what you were saying about racism in the radical feminist community because I think that’s a really important issue. And, unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be an issue that most white women, or even other non-Black women, want to discuss in those so-called feminist spaces… which does not surprise me but it’s still, you know, frustrating and disappointing. So could you just speak a little bit more about the fact that you, as a black woman and feminist feel like, just because you happen to be a woman and a feminist yourself, doesn’t mean that, like, your racism is okay.

NEAL: Right. Yeah, you know, like I’ve said I’ve experienced it personally. I remember a couple years ago, I was in Chicago, and these radical feminists, and I’m thinking, Okay… I was gonna go, and I’m like well you know what while we’re here we need to make our presence known to the women and girls that have been subjected to the paedophile R. Kelly. And that was just completely dismissed.  And I’m like, how are feminists going to Chicago, where R. Kelly preyed on so many. So, our issues are ignored and I just see that as racist. It is. And even when white women say, ‘Oh you’re angry, everything’s not about race.’ That’s racist. It is. Everything is about race. We are Black women. It absolutely is. Our race, our skin tone, our hair… [unintelligible] how we’re mistreated, how well we’re  treated. It’s always about race. And I just find white women do not want to talk about it. They want us to shut up, you know, the gaslighting, and y’know, ‘I’m not racist,’ ‘You’re angry, you’re just angry,’ and it goes nowhere. And Black women – I can say this for myself – I get tired of teaching Racism 101 to mothaf**kas that really don’t give a f**k.

SHEOWL: :chuckles:

NEAL: I’m done. I’m done. I don’t get paid for this shit, you know? Because, it’s funny, and I don’t mean to be trite, but I know that women in India are subjected to men throwing acid in their faces…

SHEOWL: Mhm.

NEAL: You know, no one had to teach me that because I have an interest in women and how they’re surviving and what they’re being subjected to. You know, no one – 

SHEOWL: Right.

NEAL: – white women aren’t interested. I mean, I can just see, they don’t even post about us. They’ll post [about] Black men, or, maybe if a white man has done something to a Black woman, but they don’t post about the brutality we’re dealing with in the Black community, so-called community. It’s really not a community. It really isn’t on so many levels. It is not. So I’m not interested in having those conversations when it’s obvious that many white women aren’t interested in understanding when they’re being racist. Or accepting it and, y’know, f**king stopping. And they don’t have to, you know? They’re good…And, matter of fact, talking to radical feminists about them being racist is the same dialogue as talking with Black men when they’re being misogynistic. It’s the same dialogue. I mean, it’s crazy. How is that it’s the same dialogue. You know, ‘You’re being misogynist.’ ‘No, you just hate Black men,’ ‘You just hate white women,’ ‘You’re just angry.’ You know? You just can’t make this shit up. I have divested from teaching Racism 101 as I have from teaching Misogyny 101. I don’t do it anymore.

SHEOWL: Well. I think that’s a good thing :laughs: because why waste your time?

NEAL: Yup.

SHEOWL: You know, I just want to briefly say something about you know the angry black woman stereotype because you’ve brought it up many times at this point. And I just, you know, when that kind of comment is coming from another woman who is supposedly a feminist, my – Like, I just – I’m not entirely sure why that’s a criticism, you know? Because from my perspective, it’s like, well, if you are a woman of any race, anger should be one of your primary emotions, you know? Like it should be. We have a lot to be pissed off about as women. And then you add the race aspect on top of that. If you’re a black woman, then it’s like -I forget now if this is a quote from a Black activist of the past or – you know, because it’s a sentiment I’ve heard before, maybe not in these exact words but it to me it’s like, if you are a Black woman and you’re not pissed off about something, then it’s probably because you’re not paying attention or you’re in denial or you’re trying to be nice to the people who treat you like shit. And it’s like, I will never understand why the accusation of, Oh well you’re just an angry person is supposed to be a criticism, it’s like, well, if I have a righteous reason to be angry, then, yeah, I’m angry so like, that’s not a response :laughs: you know?

NEAL: Yeah. Well I’ll tell you where it comes from. That Angry Black Woman shit comes directly from Black men. I’ve had Black men tell me, ‘We’re not misogynist, Black men aren’t misogynist, we’re not oppressive. We don’t have [unintelligible],’ and that’s bullshit, because they have been [unintelligible] against Black women for generations to portray us as ugly, angry…We’re – Black women are not allowed to be angry – and we’re not angry enough, actually – but we’re not allowed to be angry

SHEOWL: Mhm.

NEAL: And Black men love to tell us, tell the world, that other women – Asian women, white women, Latino women – are more feminine. So anger to them is masculine – 

SHEOWL: Right.

NEAL:  So when we’re being angry, we’re being [unintelligible], we’re not soft, we’re not vulnerable. So it’s a shame to be so-called angry. So you know, and how white women say that shit, the same language that Black men use, that’s why it’s like they sat in [unintelligible] classroom! You know, they listened to the lectures, they’re taking notes…

SHEOWL: :chuckles:

NEAL: ‘Okay, we got it now.’ So they use the use the same f**king language…and it’s so disgusting. It really is. I do not mind saying, ‘Yes, I’m an angry Black woman. Sure am. Yes I am.’ I am not angry enough And I’m not angry enough. And if we were so angry [unintelligible], the Black community would be beautiful, there would be no violence because we would be rid of the problem, and the problem is Black men. So we’re not angry enough. There {unintelligible] all out war…guerilla warfare. [unintelligible].

SHEOWL: You have referred to colorism several times so far. For people who don’t know what colorism is could you just briefly explain it?

NEAL: Yeah, colorist is basically a grading system. If you’re so-called too dark, you’re not pretty, as a woman…it only seems to apply really [to], or impact Black women – I mean I know Black men experience colorism but I don’t think to the degree that Black women, so…it was called a paper bag test that Black people used to get. It. Might be based off of that, but the darker you are as a Black woman, the more so-called masculine you are, the more you’re [unintelligible}, the more you don’t deserve nice things. If you are a child that might be darker than the other siblings, you are targeted. Just mistreated. So that’s what colorist and that’s what Black people do to darker skinned Black women. I remember you know as a kid, you know, I would fall down and hurt myself, ‘Oh shut up you’re alright,’ but if a lighter skinned girl fell and herself, everybody would run to her and console her.

SHEOWL: So as far as addressing colorism goes if you’re a woman, that would look like, you know, calling it out when men are expressing it. What else would you say is a way for women to address that?

NEAL: Yeah, call it out. Get to know Black women. Stop listening to those motherf**kers who so-called educate you on who Black women are. So many white women believe Black men’s lies {unintelligible]. So, there’s some triangulation that’s been going on a long time. It’d be nice if they stopped listening and wanting to believe that shit. And I was talking about how they view media over the years. [unintelligible] has done it, Red Sanford – I mean Red Fox – they’re always making us, you know, portraying us as ugly and unattractive. Yeah call it out, when we’re talking with Black men when they say ‘Oh you know I don’t date Black women because so-and-so,’ just hold your hand up and say, ‘Stop, I don’t wanna hear that,’ or, ‘I know better.’ You know just say, hey you’re being colorist. You know, I don’t let white men tell me about white women. No man, white, Native, Asian, whatever, can tell me shit about any woman on this planet, cannot define any women on this planet, because I know men are misogynistic, and I know men – they recreate, they lie about history. They can’t tell me shit, so I want white women, and not Black women, to develop that attitude. Maybe we can get there. I want it to be the woman on top.